From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:37:56 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] New York City

I am typing through tears as this city has been brought to its knees with deaths expected to climb into the thousands - around 50,000 persons are in the World Trade Center buildings at any one time during the day and this was at the very start of the workday with employees and passers-by in high attendance. My sister and brother are both in upper Manhattan, safe but isolated. My father made it back home to an outlying borough (Queens) from an airport where he was supposed to take off on a business trip to Florida. I am on the NYC/Long Island border area.

Phones were hard to connect this morning but once I had reached all family members and some friends, I realized I had better go shopping for water and my few foods. All highways into NYC are closed and public transportation is down so local roads are now clogged with traffic - those who got out and those trying to get in to pick up stranded family members or find out news about the missing. Little information is available on casualties as yet.

As I drove around (a real challenge as even local bridges are shut down requiring a lot of circuitous travel) some places seemed normal while most scenes involved people in tears, hugging one another and all exchanging news if they had been far from their car radios for any length of time. Some of the whole foods employees who know me came to ask about road conditions, trying to figure out how to get their kids out of school. All of the school kids are safe despite many bomb threats around town. A day care center inside the world trade center was SAFELY evacuated in time before the buildings collapsed. All the kids are waiting for their parents at a local hospital. Schools all over are staying open late as families will have difficulty getting their children and busses taking kids home, finding no one there, will divert to other schools.

It is impossible to take in. The city is practically under siege and two warships are expected to come into NY harbor. Fishing boats, ferries and other volunteer water traffic are taking the wounded across the river to New Jersey as overburdened area hospitals fill rapidly. Medical personnel from my locality are readying for the overflow as roads to all the Queens and Nassau hospitals are cleared for such traffic.

Lower Manhattan is being evacuated totally and is covered in several inches of ash. Everyone is moving north to avoid the smoke from fires still blazing.

I usually sleep in my car in the parking lot of an area hospital as it is safer than the streets but will probably have to make other arrangements for tonight if casualties come this far east (likely). So many burn victims need a tremendous number of sites for proper care.

Thanks to all who wrote asking for news of my whereabouts. Very comforting to get your emails - some normalcy in a world gone insane. Of course there are a few screwballs out there calling me to ask if I will come see their apartments for rent today....as if it were just another sunny September day.

barb

September 12:

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Things to do

We can't change what happened yesterday but we can change our response. I've been thinking a lot about what I, as an individual, can do. I can't give blood, I can't volunteer (even if I were on the East Coast), I can't give money to the Red Cross or other organizations.

Some other possibilities:

Donations. My SO, Mikel, just sent me a copy of a letter he's sent out around his workplace, PG&E. The Salvation Army is collecting clothes and a variety of supplies for the survivors of the attacks yesterday. Your local Salvation Army can likely tell you what they need and where to bring it.

Blood and medical assistance. The Red Cross website is very busy and hard to get on. http://www.redcross.org/. They could use volunteers in any part of the US and probably elsewhere. There are lines 4-5 hours long made up of people wishing to donate blood. I know there are some med techs and former EMS folks on this list...I bet they'd love your help. Of course, they also need blood and platelets (a longer procedure but much needed).

Prayer. The religion doesn't matter. My HoChi (Chi Gong) group is organizing group prayer sessions (they are mostly Buddhist). And you can find others at most churches, synagogues, and other places. This Friday night marks the sabbath before the Jewish New Year. Rosh Hashanah begins Monday night. An auspicious time. Individual prayer as well as group prayer.

Political action. I don't know what is being organized but it shouldn't be too hard to find out. Your political persuasions may not match mine but one of my biggest concerns (and that of many of my friends) is that the American response to this act of war will lead to even worse taking of innocent life. I've heard talk on the news of bombing large cities like Baghdad. Bush has officially not ruled out the use of nuclear weapons.

Anti-racism work. Muslim websites all over the country have had to shut down because the servers are overwhelmed by the volume of hate mail. Arab organizations have received threats and some have shut down their phone lines. People who look Arab are being stoned in the streets...OF AMERICA. I do not (yet) know of any serious injuries or destruction of property, but I fear it is just a matter of time.

Although the buildings that were destroyed were all offices, most of lower Manhattan has been evacuated, and many nearby buildings have damage from fire and debris. I worry about displaced homeless people (those who lived outdoors near the WTC) and those who have had to leave their homes. What about those with MCS or other disabilities? Is there an effort to find them and provide safe temporary space for them? What about MCSers and asthmatics in the greater NYC area who have to leave because of the smoke and dust?

Hazardous waste activism. The mayor of NYC claims tests were done on the dust and it does not have undue amounts of asbestos. I forget the exact word, but it was clear he was not saying there was no asbestos. As the White Lung Association can tell you, all it takes is one particle in the wrong place. He also claims there were no toxic chemicals found in the dust and I believe in the smoke. But as Barb Rubin pointed out to me on the phone, this is the same mayor who responded to the West Nile malathion spraying by saying pesticides don't hurt people. That smoke is going to have burned plastics, metals, pesticides, wood treated with who knows what, paint, carpet...and a whole host of other things. If you saw the pictures you know that there were thick clouds of black smoke 2-3 times the height of the WTC towers when they were still standing, and many times wider...for at least 12 hours. I believe there is still some smoke.

What are other things we can do?

Cyndi

September 13:

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:43:14 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] Daily Air Quality Reports

Canada:

http://www.canoe.ca/Weather/aqON.html

USA:

http://www.weather.com/outlook/health/breathing/

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:04:55 -0600
From: rlchap (rlchap@cadvision.com)
To: MCS-Canadian (MCS-CanadianSources@yahoogroups.com), Immune (immune@immuneweb.org), MCS-CI (MCS-CI-exile@yahoogroups.com), Chemical-Illnet (CHEMICAL-ILLNET@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU)
Subject: [IMMUNE] Fwd: [OEM] ABC: Health Hazards Attacks Pose Continued Dangers

Health Hazards Attacks Pose Continued Dangers
By Amy Malick
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/wtc_healthhazards010911.html

[Excerpts below]

The streets are filled with toxic fumes and debris that can cause a number of medical problems for the thousands exposed.

Dr. George Leikauf, professor of environmental health and pulmonary and critical care medicine at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center, notes the impact of the collapse produced a cloud containing both large and small floating particles that can be very dangerous to the lungs.

Large particles of cement, earth and other matter can induce breathing problems by clogging the nose and throat, and possible eye damage by scratching the cornea.

Smaller particles, gases, and combustion smoke from the fire and explosions are also highly toxic, consisting of numerous irritants that may trigger airway spasms and bring on asthma attacks.

Doctors to New Yorkers: Stay Inside

"People with respiratory disease, especially chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, emphysema, bronchitis, and asthma, should stay indoors," advises Leikauf.

The American Lung Association further recommends that people with heart and lung problems avoid clean-up activities and any area where dust and soot are present.

The Lung Association also advises that when driving through affected areas, you should keep car windows up and air vents closed.

Risk of Asbestos Exposure?

Though it has not been confirmed, several news agencies have reported the areas near where the World Trade Center towers stood are filled with asbestos, a common building material used as an insulator and fire retardant until it was eventually banned by government agencies in the 1970s and '80s.

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:38:18 -0500
To: immune@immuneweb.org
From: "Nancy G. McFadden" (nmcfadden@mindspring.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] Landrigan on CBS news talking about toxic dust and health effects

Phil Landrigan was just on CBS news with dan rather, and he is talking about dangers of NYC dust in lower Manhattan, advising wearing masks, acknowledged short term effects and possible long term effects. excellent.

unlike the last toxic malathion, this time the media is warning people to protect themselves.

nancym

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:08:19 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] Dust Clouds spreading

The toxic clouds have reached Long Island and many surrounding areas. I awoke (sleeping outside) with a bad asthma episode and am in my apartment now. We are hoping for rain in the late afternoon and of course a wind shift.

The fumes are acrid, and many people in the streets are complaining of eye burning and breathing difficulties. I have no idea how the workers at ground zero are managing.

I get regular NY Times digest updates on the situation (NY Times by email is free to all who register). The last one asked for suggestions as to what other information people would like to receive at this time. I replied with a request for air quality reports in and around the city.

I also posted to the firefighters website and told them to ensure that the rescue workers were all provided with NIOSH approved respirator masks instead of the flimsy dust masks currently in use. I will now write to 3M company and ask them to donate more.

Barb

http://community.webtv.net/Raisyl/PHOENIXRISING

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Landrigan on CBS news talking about toxic dust and health effects

Thanks for the update, Nancy.

I heard an interview last night on ABC with Ted Koppel. He was speaking to the head of the Fairfax, VA special search and rescue group. Koppel asked about toxins and the answer was that the jet fuel fumes were quite toxic and so was burning office furniture. They did not mention anything about people at large but the guy said the fumes would be enough to kill people above the burning floors :(

I wonder what the long-term effects of all that asbestos are. Will the survivors and rescuers suffer 20-30 years from now? I'm seeing a lot of poor safety precautions on the news. Rescuers, including military units, some of whom are walking around with their (inadequate) dust masks on top of their heads or around their necks. I haven't seen anything mentioned about how to wash your clothing (or dump it) so it does not put fibers all throughout your house. This is how family members of asbestos workers get sick. There are risks you can't help but at least people should take every precaution they can, if they have a choice.

The news says people can smell the smoke up to 4 miles away. If you can smell it, there is crud in your lungs. And the crud will go much much further as we all know.

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:32:10 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] Re: Respirator Masks for NYC/Update

Hi Lists,

I wrote to the 3 M company since I was distressed by the poor protection worn by so many rescue workers. I asked if they were increasing supplies of appropriate respirator equipment. They responded as follows:

Barbara,

Thank you for your inquiry. 3M has an Emergency Relief Response Team in place prioritizing and coordinating humanitarian efforts in response to the national disaster.

Our efforts are being channeled through the American Red Cross.

Pat H. Customer Service Coordinator innovation@mmm.com

I wish the news were better. Contrary to earlier reports, no survivors have been found today. A group of five rescue workers became trapped in shifting rubble TODAY and were rescued, unharmed, several hours later but these were not persons involved in Tuesday's building collapse. At the moment, more rubble is shifting from the remaining six story high refuse of Tower #2 and has halted all current rescue activity for the time being.

Citizens have been encouraged to file missing persons reports on their list family members. It is a slow process but permits for a rising count of the numbers of victims for whom we need to account. The rising total now stands at 5,000 with reports still coming in...

The winds are still blowing the dust clouds north into Queens, Long Island and the Bronx. The mayor claimed the air quality was safe but doctors are telling of lead and asbestos particulate matter. No one refers to the VOCs causing the burning sensation being reported by many however. Christie Whitman (EPA chief) is due to give a briefing at 5 P.M. today. My lungs are a mess and so are the other local MCSers with whom I have spoken today. Wind shifts are expected by midnight with some rain to help clear the atmosphere. It will be cooler. The wreckage is still smoldering with hot metals so rain may help more than hinder. Not expected to be heavy rain.

Hope this answers some questions which have been coming in. I am sure every state is linked with the broadcasts I am getting on the three remaining broadcast channels in NY (I do not have cable). Thanks again for all the kind notes,

Barbara

From: surfingranny@hotmail.com
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Dust Clouds spreading
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:27:13 -0400

It is not a pleasant thought, and certainly not anything I would wish upon my worst enemy BUT down the road, if there are medical repercussions from this air quality insult, it may be to the benefit of all of us who have been fighting to bring this to the forefront for years in our own cases. Maybe no longer will we be called a bunch of psychotic malingerers as many have been labeled by the medical and legal systems because "there is no proof of this." Maybe now they can start to understand some of what has happened to us.

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Respirator Masks for NYC/Update

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:32:10 -0400 (EDT)

I wrote to the 3 M company since I was distressed by the poor protection worn by so many rescue workers. I asked if they were increasing supplies of appropriate respirator equipment.

That's great! I thought the equipment was inadequate too.

When I heard the mis-news I cried in joy. When I heard the correction on CNN I wanted to cry again. Of course I'm glad these workers are safe but why can't news stations get their facts right before getting people's hopes up? Can you imagine what it would be like being a family member or friend of a lost rescue worker and hearing that?

Cyndi

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:58:00 -0500
Subject: [IMMUNE] I have to process my feelings about the attack [LONG]
From: "Pam Dazey" (pdazey@home.com)
To: Immune (immune@immuneweb.org)

As a rule I do not like to do long posts but I am isolated and need to process my feelings about the Attack on America. Thanks for listening.

The past couple of days I have had some interesting insights:

I realized that while most of America was angered over their new sense of "loss of freedom" on Tuesday and Wednesday that I was not feeling that. I had no awareness of why I didn't feel that loss until today. As the stories of personal grief began to hit the TV broadcasts I connected and realized that I had already been angered and grieved my own loss of freedom when I became disabled with MCS. My ability to travel freely or get onto an airplane ended in 1999. I have longed to walk the streets of NYC and known that I cannot.

Truly I was in shock but not angry. What an odd feeling this was for me. I have been praying almost constantly for the country and world.

It became painfully clear to me today as I watched NBC and saw three survivors being interviewed from their hospital beds. As they told their stories they held hands. TOUCH. Actual physical touch is what I haven't seen much of in the coverage. On ABC yesterday Cynthia McFadden interviewed a young woman who was searching for her fiancé and Charlie Gibson told her 3 times, "Just hug her. Give her a hug." Cynthia McFadden couldn't do it. Clearly she was bewildered with her own awkwardness.

As the cameras panned the crowd during the collapse of the towers it was also striking to me at how many people had their hands over theirs mouths as they stood silently watching in horror unable to speak. Again, TOUCH. Their subconscious had placed their hands over their mouths in an attempt to bring ENERGY to their mouths because there were no adequate words to speak.

The rescue crews need energy and they need touch to get it. Where are the massage therapists of NYC? Why have I not seen rows of massage chairs, massage tables, and massage therapists lined up to give ENERGY which is as necessary to life as blood? Those workers are sore and exhausted. Massage them. Touch them. Touch the grieving.

Am I aware of this just because I used to be a massage therapist or is it because of my own touch deprivation? I live isolated and unable to hug the people I occasionally see because their clothing contains chemicals that are contaminates to me.

Then I think, "Wow! I would not appear to others a freak if I were in NYC because everyone else is also wearing a mask." As the rescue crews and news media walk around in the gaseous, asbestos, dust-filled air I finally have a visual aid that connects me physically -- not just spiritually and emotionally -- to this horrific event. I wish they understood how serious the hazards are to their long term health and well being -- especially since stress weakens the body's defense systems to fight off such assaults.

Anger, tension, and fear ... sorrow. Words that I hear from the evening news. Today I feel it all. I feel so helpless. The news is like road kill -- I don't want to look at it, but I can't take my eyes off it.

For the first two days after it happened it did not feel personal. Today it does. Today I connected on many levels that surprised me and also grieved me deeply. Many of today's stories were TOUCHING -- such as the scene at Buckingham Palace as they played the Star Spangled Banner. Solidarity and Unity. I am sorry that it took such an extreme tragedy to unite people as ONE but I am NOT sorry to see the coming together of people and countries in compassion. I am proud.

Selfishly, I hope that with this unfortunate tragedy an awareness will unfold about people in masks -- an awareness of how and and more importantly WHY we have to wear them.

God Bless You, Pam

-- Envision World Peace

September 14:

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:09:51 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] Further Correspondence with 3M corp.

The 3M company sent me a more detailed reply than before to my request for enlarging the supply of high quality respirator masks to rescue workers. Their reply is as follows:

Dear Barbara,

Thank you for your suggestions regarding ways in which 3M can help out in light of this recent disaster.

3M Occupational Health & Environmental Safety Division personnel have been on location in New York City and Washington DC since Tuesday, September 11, to provide immediate, on-site consultation and assistance on respiratory products. The disaster scene in New York is currently under the guidance of FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Association), NIOSH (National Institute fir Occupational Safety and Health), OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) and the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency).

We are in contact with government agencies, relief organizations and their suppliers. We are helping to provide products that they have requested and to provide technical assistance regarding product applications and availability, based upon the current recommendation of the federal agencies for exposures to a variety of airborne contaminants such as asbestos and lead.

We recognize that the situation and product requirements could change at any time. We continue to work with the agencies onsite, to ensure that we are providing the products they deem appropriate for the exposures encountered.

With Sincere Appreciation, 3M Occupational Health & Environmental Safety Division

Of course, I followed up with more detail as well in the following reply:

To the 3M Corp.;

Thank you for your reply and your presence on the scene at this time of great need. Your reply describes the situation I hoped would be avoided wherein minimal protections are afforded until such time as test results may indicate otherwise.

As a person who has been poisoned by the routine application of pesticides, I know all too well the dangers in waiting for the authorities to test/discover the nature of pollutants and then to rule on what should be done about them. Also, vast individual differences exist among people in tolerance for different exposures meaning that uniform recommendations must still be modified to suit the more vulnerable individual. Add to that the physical exertion of the rescue teams which causes them to breathe deeply in the most contaminated of areas and you get a portrait of a scene where high quality respirator masks should have been distributed FIRST before FEMA and the EPA began their testing.. They can always make the decision to go to lower level protection equipment at a later time with no harm done. No remedy exists for the reverse scenario.

Unfortunately, the protocol of our government is always to expose people first and then determine what safety measures will be expedient to implement. Lastly comes the post-mortem examination of what SHOULD have been done. It is my hope that the highest level of protection which can be afforded to these workers is made available so that knowledgable souls (or just cautious ones) can make their own choices and err on the side of safety. With your assistance, such choices will be possible.

Thank you again for your generous assistance to the people of my state. I also use your products (dust masks and charcoal respirator masks) due to reactive airway problems. I do have to remove the elastic bands and replace them with non-latex equivalents. However, they afford me independence and quality of life so that I can shop for myself, enter libraries etc. Appreciatively,

Barbara Rubin
Locust Valley, N.Y.

From: "Susan Beck" (sbeck@infinity.net)
To:immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Now its Really Real
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:41:10 -0400

Hi All:

Today is the official day of morning in the US and Canada. I have no TV so I listened to the cerimony on Parlament Hill at 12:00 and observed the 3 min of silence along with millions of others I suspect. After that I planned to turn off the radio, which has been on constantly for the last 3 day, when I heard a woman tell a story that finally, added to all the rest of what I have heard, changed how I feel.

I had been listening to the hard news and all the stories, in some attempt to understand and maybe to make it all seem real. Not just the fact that it happend, which is real enough, but all that entails. I cried alot , thought alot, worried alot, wondered alot; slept alot. But it was still not completely real.

Now this woman who was looking for her cousin described her 6 hour wait at the Belvieu (sp) hospital in NY, filling out a 7 page form, in the hopes of locating her cousin who worked above the 100th fl of one of the two twin towers. She told of how the twin brother of the man ahead of her knew her cousin and worked on the same floor. Also of others she waited with, who had received calls from daughters and sons just before the communications went dead. All waiting and hoping to find out something.

She completed this unbelievable seven page form asking, among other things, for colors of each eye, length of toe nails, dental records, all surgeries and on and on.... She finally got into the hospital, handed in her form and was told her cousin would now be part of a data base and that there could be any number of reasons why the family had not been contacted. She went home to wait and hope like thousands of others.

I don't know why but finally after hearing this particular story I felt the reality of all this. Maybe this hits us all in different ways, on different levels at different times. Perhaps at first I just could not feel too much; I wanted to understand it all but I couldn't because that would mean taking it ALL in at once. It took me 3 days of purposeful listening to all angles and all types of information when today it became very real.

Now I am at a loss to explain how this reality feels though, just that its not allusive, otherworldly or a bad dream. Its real in all ways I can imagine and now and I am forced to see and be part of what much of the world has already been through for too long. And hope only that maybe it can eventually change for us all.

Susan Beck
sbeck@infinity.net

September 15:

From: "Blazing Tattles" (claire@blazingtattles.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Re: Respirator Masks for NYC/Update
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:27:26 -0400

Barbara Rubin wrote:

The mayor claimed the air quality was safe but doctors are telling of lead and asbestos particulate matter. No one refers to the VOCs causing the burning sensation being reported by many however.

I heard the statement on TV regarding asbestos: "It was not as bad as they expected." That's a US government PR strategy to say it is not as bad as expected. That's what they said during the Gulf War and after when the oilfires were burning. The EPA officials said "it is not as bad as expected." It screws around with people's minds and with reality. We are all brainwashed by the media, the government, the those who are behind it -- the defense contractors who control the media and the government.

My lungs are a mess and so are the other local MCSers with whom I have spoken today.

When I have lung problems I stimulate the reflex point for lungs. It helps and it is non-reactive and non-toxic. These points are not actually points, but the "pads" on your hands under your fingers, and on the feet behind the toes and above across the foot over the toes.

You take one hand in the other and run your thumb across the pad of the other hand, starting on the thumb side and moving toward the outside. You do this while inhaling. You also visualize your lungs while you do it. You do it in sequences of 7, i.e., 7 times on one side and then 7 on the other. You start on the left side, then do the right side.

Doing the foot is similar.

Seven times is the minimum, and I would not recommend doing more because it can be overdone. I mean, you might need 49 strokes, but I can't advise that because I don't know. Seven is safe. You can repeat as needed.

If you can tolerate vit. C crystals, you might also up the amount you take. If I were having a lung emergency, I'd take 4 grams every half hour or hour for a few hours. Of course, that's a lot, and if you are not used to it, it's best to start a little more slowly.

Best wishes,

Claire Gilbert, a former New Yorker who worked in the Wall St. area for 4 years or so.

From: "Susan Beck" (sbeck@infinity.net)
To: "Pam Dazey" (pdazey@home.com), "Immune" (immune@immuneweb.org)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] I have to process my feelings about the attack [LONG]
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:52:48 -0400

became disabled with MCS. My ability to travel freely or get onto an airplane ended in 1999. I have longed to walk the streets of NYC and known that I cannot.

You got that right I lost my freedom in 1986 and it got worse ... so I already grieved and was angry about that. I live in Canada many here feel the same fears you all do now.

I did not feel angry either just sad. I never thought about that dimension till you mentioned it either.

Susan

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Respirators for Rescue Workers

I've been wondering how I could help in this regard. As most of you know, I sell respirators, but I can't afford to donate large quantities directly and I can't buy them at true wholesale so any "savings" I can pass on to people isn't that high. Someone suggested I set up a page where people can pay for them and I ship them to New York, but that didn't seem like the best use of resources.

Just a few minutes ago I got a phone call from a volunteer working with the Jarvis Center in New York City [I think now it may have been the Javits Convention Center]. They are coordinating efforts to supply the rescue workers with respirators. He wanted to know the part #'s for the ones I recommend.

I gave him the part #'s and information on the masks themselves. And I told him where to buy them (Grainger). He said he had thought of Grainger but didn't know which ones to get and also that Grainger was closed on Saturdays. I said to order through their website (free delivery).

I mentioned how I cringed whenever I saw a rescue worker wearing one of those ineffectual paper filters. He said the canister respirators "are just not found in New York." I also encouraged him to emphasize to the workers how important it is to WEAR the respirators. They don't work if they are in your hand, on the top of your head, or around your neck. He said part of the problem is they need to take a break from breathing through them because they get hot and sweaty. I said, yes, but not when they are in a bucket brigade passing around loads of WTC dust, like I've seen on TV.

I told him I didn't know if the North Safety masks filtered for asbestos. I was heartened to hear that they are assuming there is asbestos in the air and want to take precautions against exposure. I gave him the phone number for the White Lung Association and said I would look into it (anyone know the answer?).

He echoed something I wrote recently on my website: how horrible it would be if 10, 20 years from now a lot of those rescue workers got sick. I agreed but told him the problem wasn't just lung cancer and other asbestos-related diseases. I said they are also at risk for occupational asthma and multiple chemical sensitivity.

I gave him my website address and he already had my phone number. I told him to give those out to anyone who needs them. As I told him, I don't always know the answers but I do know where to find out. He will let anyone there who has questions about toxic exposures know that they can give me a call and I will track down the answers for them.

I felt good about doing something even if it was just a 15 minute phone call.

Okay, folks, I need your help. I want this website to be a comprehensive resource and I want to be able to give people quick answers to questions. If you are an expert in any aspect of this issue, or if you have easy access to someone who is, please let me know. I'd love to have your phone number through private email (indicate if I can give it out to people with specific questions or if you want all questions to go through me).

I also want people to read through the website and correct any errors I have made! I am not a medical expert and I am not trained in accessing safety equipment needs. Like many of us here, my training comes from asking questions and using the stuff myself. I do not want to risk giving someone a wrong answer. But I also don't want to hedge so much that my advice is useless.

The website is http://www.immuneweb.org/sept11/
Post or forward it anywhere you wish.

Cyndi

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:05:14 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] Update website page on NIOSH Guide to Respirators

Cyndi, per your request to review the site and provide corrections please Update page at

http://www.immuneweb.org/articles/nioshguide.html

that states the guide is rumoured to be published.

It is all over the place:

http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=NIOSH+Guide+to+the+Selection+and+Use+Of

I would tend to supply the above link as well as there is lots of good info in the other links with regards to performance.

BTW, asbestos is filtered out by any particulate filter pad of good quality. Just using a vapor cartridge may not be adequate.

Pete

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:08:32 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] Asbestos filtering info NIOSH Appdx E

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/appndxe.html

COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT PART 84 RESPIRATORS

2. How effective are the Part 84 filter respirators against asbestos fibers or other rod-shaped particles?

Although fibers or rod-shaped particles may have very small cross-sectional diameters relative to their lengths, the Part 84 particulate filter respirators will be at least as efficient against this particle shape as the certified efficiency level.

Pete

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:24:33 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] Respirator Filters for asbestos

http://www.degilsafety.com/cartridge.htm

There are these on this page.

N99- P/N DiskitN99, Box of 12 pair N100- P/N P/N DiskitN100, Box of 12 pair R95- P/N DiskitR95, Box of 12 pair R100- P/N DiskitR100, Box of 12 pair P100- P/N DiskitP100, Box of 12 pair

Low Profile P100 Filter- P/N 158-T-LP0, Box of 6

Including this tidbit: asbestos abatement (specific limitations apply see OSHA 1910.1001) and remediation

So finding OSHA 1910.1001 URL to link to from the page would be good. Here it is: http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshStd_data/1910_1001.html

which is long, too long for me to read, but appears to be good and it refers to: Exposure to asbestos in construction work is covered by 29 CFR 1926.1101 which I have trouble finding, and what I found did not include the word asbestos. So...

Searching at this site on 'asbesto' found this

1926.1101AppI: Medical surveillance guidelines for asbestos
http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshStd_data/1926_1101_APP_I.html

which gives symptoms to watch for. GIVE THIS URL!!!

926.1101AppH:: Substance Technical Information for Asbestos
http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshStd_data/1926_1101_APP_H.html

which states asbestos density that respirators are good for, and gives clothing requirements as well.

Pete

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Observation about Safety Equipment

I'm going through the FEMA photo database looking for pictures with dust and smoke (you can use their photos for noncommercial reprinting as long as you credit them). There are very few NY pictures and many DC ones. The TV focus has been on NY though.

In NY you see rescue workers with inadequate respirators, or none at all. Many are wearing paper masks. A large number of them have the masks but wear them around their necks instead of where they will actually do some good.

In the Pentagon cleanup all the people in the photos have canister respirators, eye protection, hard hats, and a protective suit. Unless they are on a break, almost everyone is wearing their respirator and other equipment correctly.

Granted, the Pentagon cleanup workers are working in a smaller affected area (so more equipment to go around) and they are mostly military folks, not volunteers, so they have better discipline and probably training.

But it is the New York workers that need the protection more. There is more dust, more smoke there. There are no safe places to go take a break. Even those with adequate equipment are not using it. Why?

Cyndi

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:20:36 -0700
To: immune@immuneweb.org
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Observation about Safety Equipment

Cyndi,

As always, you have a keen overview of insight from over a decade of overseeing the Immune mailing list. Thank you.

This email may be forwarded to any involved party to alert them to the dangers. Who would that be?

The real gist is at the bottom of this email to protect those New York rescuers.

At 04:04 PM 9/15/2001 , Cyndi Norman wrote: Granted, the Pentagon cleanup workers are working in a smaller affected area (so more equipment to go around) and they are mostly military folks, not volunteers, so they have better discipline and probably training.

And maybe a real deadly reason why. There could have been research labs with a variety of chemicals, normal chem lab type chemicals, that are not suppose to mix, thus we are talking about cyanide gas, a deadly killer in 20 seconds.

Also, training for chemical cleanup is likely much higher than those in the city. At least with those experts in charge and the men underneath them they are directly responsible for and must ensure the survival of every man they order as to do otherwise is to end their upwardly mobile career in the ranks of the officers. Any officer found responsible for the death of a soldier during peace time within the borders of the US has frozen his rank and pay. That is a fact of military life and will never change here in the states.

Quite different from the city folk.

But it is the New York workers that need the protection more.

Debatable. No chemical labs in the world trade center I bet. In fact I know skyscrapers do not allow toxic chemicals in bulk or even enough for a small lab. It is office space.

There is more dust, more smoke there.

True.

Even those with adequate equipment are not using it. Why?

Two reasons. Men like to think of themselves as invulnerable. Two, fair to poor or no training. Even the firemen are trained well only for 'flame' conditions with full facemask and O2 supply. Anything less than that and the firemen are NOT TRAINED AT ALL for those conditions.

And most of all soldiers have plenty of training that they are not invulnerable and can be killed with slow death type poisons that are invisible. Part of basic military training.

There are no safe places to go take a break.

I disagree. Volunteers should be allowed to work only 3-4 hours a day, and then taken to an observation area for 30 minutes and treated for inhalation problems, seen by a doctor, and given a healthy dose of O2 for 10 minutes to clear conditions, improve health, and boost the system into clearing itself, before release to go home.

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:32:24 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org (Immune Mailing List)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

HOLD ON THERE! How do you know they are not already donating materials? I was in contact with 3M and they were on the scene but ONLY supplying what FEMA and the EPA asked for. Of course the jerks only asked for lightweight stuff so no one would think there was any danger. The company would have sent whatever was asked for but could not go against the authority figures on site.

When soliciting donations, it is not considered politic to insult the potential donor unless you absolutely KNOW they are do nothing creeps who have to be shamed into their donation.

The word around here is that all stores are out of respirator masks and that none of the good kind are around anyway. But NY does not even have labs with permits to examine blood for many types of solvent poisoning so most workers never know. All the stores I called like the home depots that have many types of masks all said they had been shipped downtown. Inadequate supply, no authoritative voice telling of the dangers and workers too dedicated to stop and wait for needed supplies. They need full face masks actually - all were stopping and washing each other's eyes out with water. Very sad.

A guy I know running for public advocate told me he knows the head of fire safety for NYC but the guys cell phone was out of order. I told him to send a telegram! If we get the word out directly to the workers to insist upon certain protections and USE them, we may get someplace. This politician will do it.

Barb

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:03:03 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] NBC asbestos article URL and excerpt

The NBC asbestos article http://www.msnbc.com/news/629268.asp?0sp=w12b2

Nonetheless, the agency and outside medical experts stress that asbestos exposure is only dangerous when it is continuous over long periods of time. The elevated amounts of asbestos pose little danger to New Yorkers who are not working in the rescue effort, they say. The risks to those at the epicenter, who are up to their elbows in it, can be mitigated by special filtration masks, which few people are using. Because asbestos fibers are so small, the conventional surgical masks being used by some rescuers and journalists at the blast site provide no protection against them.

Now, most health scientists would agree with the above 100% only there is the opinion that in some people, a minority, just one asbestos fiber is enough to cause long term incurable cancer. Also, the other toxic chemical vapors are not blocked by even a respirator, unless equipped with a special cartridge or two or three, each cartridge designed explicitly for one chemical or a family that can be absorbed for a limited time by the cartridges' chemicals, which run out in 8 to 24 hours of use.

Pete

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:18:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Observation about Safety Equipment

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:20:36 -0700 From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)

This email may be forwarded to any involved party to alert them to the dangers. Who would that be?

Can I put it on the website I made?

At 04:04 PM 9/15/2001 , Cyndi Norman wrote: Granted, the Pentagon cleanup workers are working in a smaller affected area (so more equipment to go around) and they are mostly military folks, not volunteers, so they have better discipline and probably training.

And maybe a real deadly reason why. There could have been research labs with a variety of chemicals, normal chem lab type chemicals, that are not suppose to mix, thus we are talking about cyanide gas, a deadly killer in 20 seconds.

Yikes, I didn't think about chemical labs.

But it is the New York workers that need the protection more.

Debatable. No chemical labs in the world trade center I bet. In fact I know skyscrapers do not allow toxic chemicals in bulk or even enough for a small lab. It is office space.

Of course it depends what you call a toxic chemical. I'd say all that burning carpet and office furniture (plastic, pressboard, etc) is pretty up there on the list.

There is more dust, more smoke there.

True.

My point being that you can not get away from it and when you are in the area, you are immersed in it.

Even those with adequate equipment are not using it. Why?

Two reasons. Men like to think of themselves as invulnerable. Two, fair to poor or no training. Even the firemen are trained well only for 'flame' conditions with full facemask and O2 supply. Anything less than that and the firemen are NOT TRAINED AT ALL for those conditions.

Nodding.

There are no safe places to go take a break.

I disagree. Volunteers should be allowed to work only 3-4 hours a day, and then taken to an observation area for 30 minutes and treated for inhalation problems, seen by a doctor, and given a healthy dose of O2 for 10 minutes to clear conditions, improve health, and boost the system into clearing itself, before release to go home.

"Should" and "are" are completely different things. There are more volunteers than they need in NYC, they should use more of them and rotate them more. I heard this very thing discussed on the news and apparently the workers don't want to be relieved. They want to go until the collapse. Admirable, but it still shouldn't be allowed.

They should also make sure their clothes to go home in were not in that muck. Tracking asbestos and God knows what all over their homes is toxic exposure that will last for a lifetime and affect their families, roommates, neighbors with a shared entryway, etc.

There are more things they can do to protect themselves and people unwilling to protect themselves need to be forced to do so or told, thanks anyway. This is a danger you just can't fool around with. There is no shortage of volunteers. No one wants more casualties out of this travesty.

Cyndi

Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:11:08 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

At 06:32 PM 9/15/2001 , Barbara Rubin wrote: HOLD ON THERE! How do you know they are not already donating materials?

I can tell from watching TV they are not donating what an expert would insist upon donating and seeing it used.

I was in contact with 3M and they were on the scene but ONLY supplying what FEMA and the EPA asked for. Of course the jerks only asked for lightweight stuff so no one would think there was any danger.

I would agree with 'the jerks' evaluation, and the lawsuits afterwards of ruined lives and families with fathers...

The company would have sent whatever was asked for but could not go against the authority figures on site.

Authority usually concedes to expertise.

The experts at these companies should have argued til the sun turned cold that the workers needs respirators, not just paper masks.

When soliciting donations, it is not considered politic to insult the potential donor unless you absolutely KNOW they are do nothing creeps who have to be shamed into their donation.

I 'know' they are creeps. I see it on TV. Scenes live from New York. People wearing surgeon masks, but not even those, which are of high quality and full wrap around.

Instead I see light weight lose fitting masks that are known to accumulate heavy air borne particles behind the mask, thus increasing the actually amount of particles deposited in the lungs. Heavy particles are slower moving, so accumulate behind the mask, and move even slower, and so are deposited in the lungs instead of exhaled. That is why second hand smokers can have more particles deposited than the actually smoker.

Dust and asbestos are heavy particles.

Those flimsy masks fitting tightly only over the nose, to hold the mask on, but not fitting tightly around the cheeks are likely causing more harm than good.

The word around here is that all stores are out of respirator masks and that none of the good kind are around anyway.

Heavy trucks and equipment have been brought from out of state. What about filling one of those trucks with respirators from out of state? How many days does it take to drive a truck across the US? At 60 mph, the 3000 miles is gone in 50 hours - 3 days.

So, where the respirators are now is not the excuse. Something else is being considered by the New York powers in authority over the rescue and clean up.

But NY does not even have labs with permits to examine blood for many types of solvent poisoning so most workers never know.

Again, there are labs a plenty - those labs set up special to analysis DNA of victims... Why not the same level of spending for daily blood examines of the thousand of rescue workers?

workers too dedicated to stop and wait for needed supplies. They need full face masks actually - all were stopping and washing each other's eyes out with water. Very sad.

Agree. Both the full face mask, or something covering the eyes, and even full body protection for every inch of skin, and very sad. Especially the powers that be for allowing it.

And the military watching the New York who also know. Military whose purpose is to protect...

A guy I know running for public advocate told me he knows the head of fire safety for NYC but the guys cell phone was out of order. I told him to send a telegram!

Yeah!! Good for you Barbara. God bless you there in New York. Keep safe.

If we get the word out directly to the workers to insist upon certain protections and USE them, we may get someplace. This politician will do it.

Good. What is his email address? ;-) But seriously, email his office. Gather all the posts on immune... just a thought.

September 16:

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org (Immune Mailing List)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

Experts abound in all areas of health and safety but still cannot work around the EPA and corrupt DOH systems which insist that toxic materials cannot harm anyone. If government wishes us to be exposed to toxins for their own purposes (e.g. municipal spraying of insecticides) or because they cannot prevent the release of toxins for reasons of profitability (commercial emissions) or in emergencies (this attack or accidents), they put up a wall of interference which hold back the usefulness of this expertise in any public manner. Note that independent labs were used to break the news of circulating asbestos and independent doctors unconnected with the DOH are warning of fumes and their effects. The donors of safety equipment are not making their own decisions about what to offer, just responding to requests.

Now that the outcry against misleading information about the danger to workers has at least become audible, more requests have gone out for the higher quality protective equipment to be donated - although such requests are not associated with any official agency's title). The word must get out at the grass roots level as always...

Barbara

To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:47:28 -0700
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Sept 11th Page Updates

Hi Cyndi,

Wonderful additions.

The first paragraph ends with

And that the risks are larger for those with immune problems, asthma, heart conditions, or chemical sensitivities.

and ought to include the following

babies (get allergies for the rest of their lifes'),
children (per body weight exposure is 2 to 10 times higher),
elderly (can not tolerant the toxics and get ill - and die),
sick and injured (immune system is already max out - and die)

Regarding the downwind sampling

It has been shown and proven scientifically and in the fields that warm dust plumes rise and then 5 to 20 miles away sink back down to ground level. The EPA is not testing in all the right places. To ensure the safety of the workers they are. But not to ensure the safety of those 2 to 30 miles away. Innocents will be harmed by these toxins.

I would tend to stress the after work 'cleanup' into new clothes after a shower including the hair is very important to not track the toxins into the home where cleanup can run into the unwanted thousands of dollars, only after the health of all family members is so poor.

Bold in RED item 7 in "Correct Use of Safety Equipment":

do not allow contaminated clothes or shoes to go into your home or car (at the very least, set aside a set of clothes just for rescue work, keep it in a plastic bag, and throw it out when you are done--do not wash contaminated clothes with other clothes)

and add "KEEP YOUR FAMILY MEMBER SAFE!!!" in order to hone the point that people away from the work are at risk too.

Include this section:

PROPER Respirator USE

Respirators with only filter pads only remove the air borne particles of a certain size and larger. No vapors or gases are removed and one is still at danger from those.

The filter pads do need regular replacing to avoid stressing the lungs from overworking in pulling in air through every clogging filter pads.

Daily replacement to avoid breathing the 'fumes' coming from the dust particles (the air borne vapors and gases might be absorbed by the particles and then released into the filter for one to breathe) would be wise to reduce lung muscle related soreness. Every hour replacement in severe conditions is the standard industry practice. It reduces sweating and discomfort.

If the filter pads start smelling, then replace them. If the filter pads become oily, then replace them immediately. Oil fumes are very hazardous to the lungs and an immediate health hazard to prevent death.

Used respirator filter pads should be considered toxic and disposed of at the work site, and not taken home.

Remove the filter pads and dispose of them before washing the respirator.

The respirator should be cleaned each day after the work is done in clean running water with clean hands and hair to prevent contamination after the respirator is clean.

Do not use harsh soaps. Not much soap is needed in the cleaning.
Do not use chemicals to clean the respirators.
Water and hand soap is fine.

-- That's all for now.

From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Pictures

Sender: owner-immune@balaca.com Precedence: bulk You can find a lot of amazing photos at the link posted here yesterday. http://www.researchbuzz.com/911.html. Worth checking out.

Here is one in particular that really upset me. Why do firefighters not have proper safety equipment in their rigs? They protect skin but not lungs.

http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/shattered/10.html

Cyndi

From: "Susan Beck" (sbeck@infinity.net)
To: "Immune" (immune@immuneweb.org)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Observation about Safety Equipment
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:08:38 -0400

Even those with adequate equipment are not using it. Why?

They are young , they feel invincible, they don't care , they are all hyped up .... and there is no regulation to make them do it I guess and I doubt they will with out that unless they are educated. Not a lot of time for that.

Even if we can save one of them from getting lung Cancer we have done well. but they should have been doing this since Tues

But your efforts toward this will certainly help change policy for the next disaster . Hopefully not like this one!

Susan

To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:51:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

I posted the below URL shortly afterwards - it lists most of them. What we do need to connect the manufacturers with the New York City officials and the News broadcasters who can get them free PR, as the news casters have already stated the question

Why are these rescuers working without proper protection?

So we have 3 motivated parties, manufacturers, News broadcasters and city officials. I think it is the city officials who are lax on this, as imminent domain would suffice to 'take' the respirators from anywhere in the state, or federal level.

So, what we need is the email addresses from the websites of the below manufacturers and New York officials from http://nyc.gov and connect them with the broadcasters.

Email respirator manufacturers listed at http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/p-ts/respiratoryprotection/resp-man.htm

Of course, all this assumes the manufacturers have not already been willing to donate, but been rebuffed.

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:31:37 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org (Immune Mailing List)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

The political candidate of whom I spoke earlier (Bill) just sent me an email. He personally went to a neighborhood firehouse where they suffered the largest number of losses and told them they were getting inadequate information about safety issues from the mayor (BTW - he is NOT running for mayor). They rebuffed him. He says they are so overcome with grief that they cannot even consider that their hero, Giuliani, would not get them the right information.

Giuliani is echoing the whispers of CDC, EPA and corporate America so the chain of liars is long and hard to beat. Bill will go to see the fire safety official in person tomorrow morning to get the point across. I have sent him Cyndi's website and all the newspaper articles detailing the dangers at hand to bring with him.

Barb

Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:55:19 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] NIOSH/EPA IAQ 1991 publication URL

Thanks to a recent post to Immune I have explored the recent US government offerings on Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) and found these from 1991:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/baqtoc.html

which links to Section 2

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/sec_2.pdf

Section 2: Factors Affecting Indoor Air Quality (PDF format; 8 pages)
Sources of Indoor Air Contaminants
HVAC System Design and Operation Pollutant Pathways and Driving Forces Building Occupants

while I got ill in 1991, ugh, and the fact this information was published then, ugh, so likely this info is now in need of updating to modern knowledge, it was still insightful for those people like building management or landlords, or even you to keep your health one step better.

Sample from the Table of Contents:

TAB II: PREVENTING IAQ PROBLEMS TAB III: RESOLVING IAQ PROBLEMS

A link at the very bottom has the entire document as one PDF file of 3 meg.

DHHS (NIOSH) Publication No. 91-114 EPA Publication No. 400/1-91/003

Asbestos

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/append.pdf

Pete

Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:50:48 -0700
To: immune@immuneweb.org (Immune Mailing List)
From: Peter Benjamin (Pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Who makes these respirators?? Shame them into donating

At 07:31 PM 9/16/2001 , Barbara Rubin wrote:
The political candidate of whom I spoke earlier (Bill) just sent me an email.

Barb, your a gem shining at this time of darkness. Hurrah for you!!

He personally went to a neighborhood firehouse where they suffered the largest number of losses and told them they were getting inadequate information about safety issues from the mayor (BTW - he is NOT running for mayor). They rebuffed him. He says they are so overcome with grief that they cannot even consider that their hero, Giuliani, would not get them the right information.

We will continue to fight for the lifes of the rescuers, that is what fellow citizens are for. To protect you in your darkness times. We know that best here on Immune. Hurrah Cyndi!!!

Giuliani is echoing the whispers of CDC, EPA and corporate America so the chain of liars is long and hard to beat.

Any you thought I was pessimistic. ;-)

Bill will go to see the fire safety official in person tomorrow morning to get the point across.

Hurrah!

I have sent him Cyndi's website and all the newspaper articles detailing the dangers at hand to bring with him.

Solid Gold Barbara.

What about the reporter who interviewed you? Have you contact him for a follow up on the efforts to protect the rescuers? Maybe he can arrange an instant News broadcast on national TV? Got to protect Americans helping Americans!!!

Pete

Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:49:58 -0700
From: Alison Stewart (torquill@foogod.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Chemical War in Manhattan

Blazing Tattles wrote:

Built during the height of the asbestos boom, the guts of the World Trade Center may have been one of the world's largest repositories of the carcinogenic fiber, used as insulation in the giant towers.

I read an in-depth newspaper article, which said that the towers were one of the first projects to get the then-high-tech sprayed ceramic insulation to insulate the steel beams. Unfortunately, I have just spent a half-hour searching in vain for real architectural info on the towers... I am given to understand that the other insulation in the building (walls, etc) may have been asbestos, but I'd love to have real data on that. Either way, there is at least the asbestos found in ceiling and floor tiles, etc. The question is the scale of the contamination...

Underneath the rubble, thousands of tires continue to burn,

Part of the reason I wanted the info on the towers was to discover whether there were parking garages underneath, in addition to the subway station and shopping center. I assume that would be the source of these "thousands of tires". However, there are only pockets of oxygen down there, not a constant supply, and individual tires, on individual cars, do not supply as much of a sustained fire hazard as the infamous tire piles elsewhere. So it is likely that a few tires are smoking -- and may be one of the least of the AQ issues.

I agree that the air quality there is lousy, and has all sorts of nasty things in it that we should be concerned about... but I like to know what I am worrying about. Could anyone give me a site where they have detailed specs of the towers? And has anyone done a breakdown of the dust/smoke plume? I hear that they're dealing with AC gases and worse, besides the burning things.

--A

September 17:

From: "Susan Beck" (sbeck@infinity.net)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Chemical War in Manhattan
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:40:38 -0400

I read an in-depth newspaper article, which said that the towers were one of the first projects to get the then-high-tech sprayed ceramic insulation to insulate the steel beams. Unfortunately, I have just spent a half-hour searching in vain for real architectural info on the

I did hear one of the WTC architects speak on CBC radio. He did mention that there was asbestos spray as you said but if I remember correctly he said that was the only place asbestos was used.

I wonder if you contacted the architects directly if that would help. They must be named somewhere.

Sorry I can't be more help with that

Susan

From: josiefour@webtv.net
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:35:37 -0500 (CDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Re: How Educated on Toxins are Firefighters?

This past year we had a burning smell in the entire house. I called the fire department and the firemen checked everything out , they said, and said nothing was on fire. They said they didn't smell anything and I felt they thought I was some kind of "nut" as I had taken off in the cold of night in my robe and mask and headed for our Van (I have MCS).

They had turned the furnace off and I had the doors open . Soon as they left I turned the furnace on and burning toxic smell again. We turned it off and later had furnace people and duct cleaners and ended up having to get a whole new furnace (that is another story).

Scorched plastic pieces were found all through the furnace.

The point I am approaching is: I later to talked to the firemen about my MCS and they STILL didn't even get the message as to how smelling/breathing/ exposures can cause/effect some people like me.

I am concerned about what is going to happen to all these firefighters/rescue workers/survivors down the road. Are all the fire departments not educated to the danger of BREATHING toxins and not only just protecting the skin? Or is it just in Illinois that it's like this?

Josie

From: Javilk (javilk@best.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] How Educated on Toxins are Firefighters?
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:10:46 -0700 (PDT)

I am concerned about what is going to happen to all these firefighters/rescue workers/survivors down the road..........Are all the fire departments not educated to the danger of BREATHING toxins and not only just protecting the skin? Or is it just in Illinois that it's

All over the country. One of the main causes of death of firemen is cancer, often of the lungs or kidneys. There is a growing awareness out here in Silicon Valley, and in parts of New York City due to a fire some years back in a waste storage yard, where the flames were purple and all kinds of other colors.

-J-
John,
Javilk@best.com

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:50:57 -0700
To: "Susan Beck" (sbeck@infinity.net), "Alison Stewart" (torquill@foogod.com)
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Chemical War in Manhattan
Cc: immune@immuneweb.org

I read two reports about the asbestos to date. Both from the actually builders.

1) Only the bottom 1/3 of one building is asbestos coated steel beams - So? The asbestos is still bad right?

2) All of one building, and 1/3 of the other building has asbestos.

Both stories stated a law passed by New York City prohibited the spraying of fireproofing material due to the dust build up around the site. No mention of asbestos as the reason was sited. At that time asbestos was not known to cause cancer.

The first story is online. The second I heard on ABC.

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:57:04 -0700
To: immune@immuneweb.org
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Re: How Educated on Toxins are Firefighters?

At 09:35 AM 9/17/2001 , josiefour@webtv.net wrote: This past year we had a burning smell in the entire house. I called the fire department and the firemen checked everything out , they said, and said nothing was on fire. They said they didn't smell anything and I felt they thought I was some kind of "nut" as I had taken off in the cold of night in my robe and mask and headed for our Van (I have MCS).

I can smell things that only 1 in 10 other people can smell. And half the time they agree with me how it smells, and the other half the time it smells different to them.

All humans are different inside with different abilities.

I later to talked to the firemen about my MCS and they STILL didn't even get the message as to how smelling/breathing/ exposures can cause/effect some people like me.

Maybe they have been too effected to be able process this information? For sure that has happened, but so slowly they do not see the change, and their doctor gives a different reason for it. That is just one thing I could type.

I am concerned about what is going to happen to all these firefighters/rescue workers/survivors down the road..........Are all the fire departments not educated to the danger of BREATHING toxins and not only just protecting the skin?

Firemen are trained to obey, and respect the doctors' opinions. That doctors' opinion vary widely and those that might voice against the majority would be sued and lose their license is something that congress is passing laws to prevent. Too many congress man now have personal experiences with loved ones getting healthy following the minority opinion to respect the medicine profession's mainstay position any more.

Things will change in our life time.

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:42:04 -0700
To: Immune Mailing List (immune@immuneweb.org)
From: Peter Benjamin (pete@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: [IMMUNE] WTC asbestos NBC News article

http://www.msnbc.com/news/629268.asp

About half way down for 5 paragraphs. It mentions the firms, names, etc.

They always miss removing some asbestos, and any 'sealing' was completely removed upon the building falling down and burning.

Pete

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:12:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Immune Web (immune@best.com) (Cyndi Norman)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Stats on Sept11 Pages

These are as of about midnight or so Pacific Time last night. They include any visits I made to the site. A page view is not the same as a hit. A page view means the entire page...hits are counted by files, so if there are 3 graphics on a page that counts as 4 hits per page view.

The entire directory, excluding graphics: 976 page views
The front page: 818 page views
The emails page: 68 page views
Most of the others were under 20 page views, including the news page.

My worry is that we are preaching to the converted here. I don't know that anyone is reading this who is either a rescue worker or in a position to help them. We may be reaching some MCSers who live in or around NYC and keeping them safe is also quite important.

How can we get the word out?
Or, what are other ways we can help?

Cyndi

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:31:07 -0700
From: Alison Stewart (torquill@foogod.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Chemical War in Manhattan

Thanks go to LaVerne for some useful links.

from http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm:

"Deutch says that originally, the north tower contained asbestos in its cementitious fireproofing as did the first 30 stories of the south tower. He believes the asbestos, which had been encapsulated, was removed after the 1993 bombing."

"The buildings are also thought to have been the first buildings to use non-asbestos fireproofing. The fibers of the spray-on fireproofing product were reportedly ceramic rather than asbestos." [This is what I had heard.]

I still haven't found blueprints or schematics; I am most interested in the basements and the building materials. However, even the people who are apparently the authorities on the buildings -- people who have studies or were involved in their construction -- seem to have only guesswork about what materials were used in the building. I find this appalling... I really hope someone comes forward with real information quickly, and we are not left with only the guesses. It is important beyond the issue of asbestos, as there are hazardous materials in the rubble of any collapsed building. Crews need to know what they are, and in what amounts they are present.

I have also heard speculation, but no confirmation, that the parking garage(s) were removed/converted after the 1993 bombing. I am, again, unable to confirm that, due to the maddening lack of detail available about the buildings.

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Stats on Sept11

To Cyndi, Pete and all contributors (even of moral support):

You have made a difference! Bill took pages off of your site and faxed them to the fire department for review once we learned the primary safety officer was hospitalized from injuries received at the WTC location. It took days to learn this since phone service to the area is still disrupted and Bill never found the man in at his office. Now that the firefighters have the information (PETE: Do you have source URL for stats on firefighter deaths from cancer and kidney diseases?) I have also alerted the American Lung Association who just gave me an email address to use. They also want the information.

The ALA folks were also so intrigued by my story, we may work together to create a web source for housing that can be shared by persons with lung disease and chem sensitivity- a way for landlords and tenants to find compatible partners in housing. After the primary issues are taken care of here first of course!

I will also start sending the URL for your site to fire departments all over the northeast. Each of you can try in your home states- this stuff should be standard equipment issues with every fire hat!

Progress is slow yes, but change is happening. Perhaps now the firms supplying equipment will tell those ordering the information that they are asking for the WRONG stuff? Lets send the pages onward to the suppliers who may be contributing. I sent all of those sources also to Bill who sent them on to the FD.

BTW, I am now getting stopped regularly in the car and on the street to explain my mask and if I am connected to the WTC or concerned about drift. I spend about ten minutes with each person going over my issues and then the risks from drift and areas closer in to the site. I have several strangers' email addresses who want me to send them articles and websites to read on this and on pesticides.

You are all unbelievable people who are accustomed to turning our tragedies into opportunities to better the world. It is a privilege to know you all.

Barbara

http://community.webtv.net/Raisyl/PHOENIXRISING

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:34:49 -0700
To: From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin), immune@best.com
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Stats on Sept11 Pages
Cc: immune@immuneweb.org, immune@best.com

At 04:44 PM 9/17/2001 , Barbara Rubin wrote: To Cyndi, Pete and all contributors (even of moral support): You have made a difference! Bill took pages off of your site and faxed them to the fire department for review once we learned the primary safety officer was hospitalized from injuries received at the WTC location.

Oh, do have Bill ask this safety officer who politically would be on the side of safety, and who would not. Pass the baton so to speak and solicit the officer to make phone calls from the hospital to key people to make this happen.

Give my best to Bill. Have Bill pass on to the safety officer that people in California care about him and his recovery and wish him a speedy return to health. And congratulate the safety officer for his effort and his personal sacrifice.

the firefighters have the information (PETE: Do you have source URL for stats on firefighter deaths from cancer and kidney diseases?)

That was not me.

I have also alerted the American Lung Association who just gave me an email address to use. They also want the information.

Barb you wonderful gem you. 8-)))

I will also start sending the URL for your site to fire departments all over the northeast. Each of you can try in your home states- this stuff should be standard equipment issues with every fire hat!

Will do.

Progress is slow yes, but change is happening. Perhaps now the firms supplying equipment will tell those ordering the information that they are asking for the WRONG stuff?

Susan Beck is email some of them from my list she told me.

Lets send the pages onward to the suppliers who may be contributing. I sent all of those sources also to Bill who sent them on to the FD. You are all unbelievable people who are accustomed to turning our tragedies into opportunities to better the world. It is a privilege to know you all.

You're are our on site expert. The lever we have!!!

Try to get that reporter to put your story on national news for the housewives of the rescuers to hear. Nothing like a mad woman at home to make the man wear protective gear. :-)

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
To: MCS-CI-exile@yahoogroups.com, immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Re: [MCS-CI-exile] newscaster comment

As Brianna on the exile list recently pointed out, David Diaz of CBS news is the only reporter who wears his mask continuously and also chides other reporters who remove theirs on camera. I have found his email address on the CBS site and sent him the immune web site URL to review and my personal plea for coverage of his own concerns about air quality. It has deteriorated again today after a brief respite from the storms of Friday.

Barbara

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:25:12 -0700
To: Alison Stewart (torquill@foogod.com), immune@immuneweb.org
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Chemical War in Manhattan

At 04:31 PM 9/17/2001 , Alison Stewart wrote: He believes the asbestos, which had been encapsulated, was removed after the 1993 bombing."

They always miss some. 1% in the air has already been measured, and 3-4% the day after the event.

"The buildings are also thought to have been the first buildings to use non-asbestos fireproofing. The fibers of the spray-on fireproofing product were reportedly ceramic rather than asbestos." [This is what I had heard.]

This is true. See the URL I posted that asbestos was used.

I still haven't found blueprints or schematics; I am most interested in the basements and the building materials. However, even the people who are apparently the authorities on the buildings -- people who have studies or were involved in their construction -- seem to have only guesswork about what materials were used in the building. I find this appalling...

On site construction management has the authority to make substitutions based on available material in the city and surrounding countryside to make sure work continues on time.

That means while the ceramic material might have been used, if it ran out, to keep schedule, they might have used asbestos again, and it will not show on the plans, as those will not have been modified for the on site changes, and only the on site plans, not those on file, will be changed to reflect this, and those on site plans get dirty and are tossed out.

I really hope someone comes forward with real information quickly, and we are not left with only the guesses.

That is all there is right now. Play it safe would be my bet in this situation.

It is important beyond the issue of asbestos, as there are hazardous materials in the rubble of any collapsed building. Crews need to know what they are, and in what amounts they are present.

Play it safe would be my bet in this situation.

If only those civilians in charge would lose upward mobility in their careers for preventable harm to subordinates like in the military.

September 18:

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:58:12 -0700
To: rlchap (rlchap@cadvision.com), Immune (immune@immuneweb.org), MCS-Canadian (MCS-CanadianSources@yahoogroups.com)
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] [Fwd: [OEM] NYT: Asbestos' potential to save WTC Towers]

Re: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/physical/18ASBE.html

I've found that engineers do not understand physics all that well. The fact is that in an isotropic thermal distribution that all items no matter how will shielded will suffer intense radiation from what is known as black body radiation, that distributes the heat isotropic so all surfaces heat to the same temperature. After the surface comes to temperature the inside of the item comes to the same temperature.

In other words, a rock inside a fire pit is going to quickly come to the same temperature as the flames themselves, or the coals which are even hotter. You can insulate the rock all you want. The insulation deflects heat from kinetic energy of the molecules. The 'black body radiation' is all across the electromagnetic spectrum from radio waves to infra red to visible light to UV and touching up into the X-ray regions. This radiation will have frequencies that go right though any thermal layers protecting against high speed molecules.

The flames from the aviation fuel ran over 1600 degrees. No insulation including a vacuum would stop the black body radiation. A vacuum, the best thermal insulation there is, would not stop any radiation. The Blaze Shield with asbestos at best would have added a few seconds, maybe a minute, not minutes, and never hours.

Likely most deaths occurred from people above the floors where the planes struck. And second most from people so out of shape that going down another set of stairs was beyond them. There was no saving these folks. Sad.

I found the article to be sensationalism, from an expert view point.

When I lived on the 11 floor and found out the fire engines could only reach the 8 floor with their ladder, I purchased a long thick rope and knotted it every 10 inches to make it easy to climb down (instead of sliding and rope burn).

Tall buildings should have as standard equipment 'wire' rope with harnesses and flame proof cages and suits, to lower people past burning floors. Helicopters can not do it fast enough and often the heat and smoke prevent them from getting over the building.

They have these 'socks' now that form sliding tunnels for fire escapes. Not that these socks would have survived the burning floors, but it offers a chance, especially on the upwind side where the wind moves the flames inside.

If you work in a tall building, then buy a 'wire rope'. There are two kinds. Totally wire - which has problems of burrs and requires gear to attach to it to slide down, but is flame proof. And wire with an outer casing of rope, thick for hands to reach around, but even then one's hands get tired, and without knots to hold your feet onto to take weight off your hands, you will need special equipment to move down the wire rope, and the special equipment will not move past a knot, may jam on a burr, and if the rope melts or burns the special equipment will slide past fast, and may even disconnect.

Best not to work in a tall building. Or next to one.

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:23:20 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org , armchairactivis@webtv.net
Subject: [IMMUNE] With Thanks from Bill Murawski

Barbara,

Please pass on my heartfelt thanks to those people providing input and managing the immune web site. Their concern for Lt. Joey Torillo is passed on to him. (NOTE: Lt. J. Torillo is the firefighters Safey Officer who was hurt)

We lost so many heroes here in NYC - the firefighters - the Ambassadors of the City is the role they play when not fighting fires. The fire company that serves our neighborhood lost 15. The following are copies of emails from a visitor and I whom I briefly met from Illinois regarding her visit here and the concern for the firemen at 48th Street and 8th Avenue. I hope you have buckets for your tears . . . . .

Hi Bill,

Can you tell me anything about the firefighters at the station located by ) 49th St. & 8th Ave. - the one next door to Days Hotel where we stayed? We really enjoyed chatting with the firefighters one evening. The younger ones flirted with my daughters and their friends, and the chief chatted with me. He must have thought the girls were under 21, which they aren't, but he was giving me safety tips about the areas to avoid at certain times. The chief initiated the conversation along with one of the younger firefighters as they were trying to play a joke on us as we walked by. The young man had fake teeth in his mouth and the chief asked if any of us were dental hygienists because this other guy had a bad toothache. The young guy then flashed us the ugliest smile we'd ever seen. At the time I didn't know the teeth were fake and just avoided looking at him. When they guys (about six ) of them) started cracking up, we knew. The one with the fake teeth actually had a beautiful smile when he finally removed the teeth.

Anyway, on both visits to NYC we found the firefighters and police to be extremely kind and friendly (last year, it was the ones in Greenwich Village). In fact, I find NYC to be a very friendly place, which is why we love vacationing there. Today there is supposed to be a moment of silence at noon around the state of Illinois. My sympathy and thoughts go out to all family and friends of those who perished. Please take care.

Wendy

My response to Wendy:

Wendy,

Here is an email I sent out on my environmental internet group. It was titled "God Bless the Heroes". I did not send it out on my campaign list because as of this time I've curtailed all political activities for the time being. Please see my website at http://www.billmurawski.com . I think the total loss at Battalion 9 Rescue 1 and Ladder 4 was 14. I am glad that you had the opportunity to experience the graciousness of the "Ambassadors of the City" as I referred to them in my email. Pass it on if you like. "God Bless the Heroes" The firemen located at 48th Street and 8th Avenue in Manhattan long served the neighborhood in which I was born and raised, and still live.

When they were not fighting fires they acted as the Ambassadors of the City because of their proximity to Times Square and the Broadway Theater District. Many times I would walk by and found them in positive conversations about New York City with the many visitors who stopped by asking for directions. Many of those ambassadors were lost in the WTC collapse.

Deborah Welsh was a flight attendant on hijacked Flight 93 that crashed to the ground in a field on September 11, 2001 - a crash that did not kill anyone on the ground. She too came from the neighborhood known as Hell's Kitchen. She too is one of our heroes.

Duffy Square on Broadway and 47th Street is named after the chaplain of "Fighting 69th", which is one of the most famous regiments in the armed forces. He was also the pastor of the Church of the Holy Cross, which is located on 42nd Street between 8th and 9th Avenues. A church that has long served many of the descendants of the Fighting 69th. There is a mass to be held at 12:05 on Friday at the Church of the Holy Cross for those who died in the WTC collapse. Please remember to have the bravest of the brave in your prayers at that time.

From this point forward, I will no longer refer to the neighborhood in which I was born and raised as Hell's Kitchen because the name is so unfitting to these heroes. I will instead refer to it as Clinton - a name which was given to the neighborhood because most of the land here was owned by the Clinton family - a family that helped forge America in its infancy during and after the American Revolution -- during a time when many other heroes fought and died for the freedoms that we no longer have. The attack on the WTC now changes everything. We must all be vigilant that the wool is not pulled over our eyes as it now appears that it is being attempted by our elected officials - and by one who was not elected by the people.

God Bless Us All Bill Murawski

The last time I say Joey Torillo it was at a party - it was for the chief of the station that is right across the street from the WTC - believe it or not - it was a benefit for the chief there. It was an amazing event to experience - the uncanny camaraderie of almost 300 firefighters coming to the aid of a brother firefighter - never in my life have I seen such closeness and loyalty in one room. I would go to the ends of the earth to help these heroes and true Ambassadors of New York City.

I was told that Joey Torillo is on medical leave and will be back to work soon -

Thanks again Barbara.

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:25:35 -0600
From: rlchap (rlchap@cadvision.com)
To: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com), Immune (immune@immuneweb.org), MCS-Canadian (MCS-CanadianSources@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] [Fwd: [OEM] NYT: Asbestos' potential to save WTCTowers]

Peter Benjamin wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/physical/18ASBE.html

When I lived on the 11 floor and found out the fire engines could only reach the 8 floor with their ladder, I purchased a long thick rope and knotted it every 10 inches to make it easy to climb down (instead of sliding and rope burn.

Once I worked in an office tower here in Calgary. My firm had the floors from 11 through 17. There was a fire on the roof and the smoke and fumes were sucked in through the air-conditioning vents.

I decided to leave ... and went through our office to make sure that those tucked away in isolated areas knew what was happening and that it would be wise to leave. I was one of the first down the stairs. Most from our firm wouldn't leave. By the time I got to the lower levels I knew that if I fell or stumbled, those behind me would have likely trampled me.

The next day, rumours abounded that those who had left would be fired for leaving (we were hard at work on a very important closing). So I called the fire department to ask some questions. The fire chief told me once there is a fire going you have only a very few minutes to get out. The stairwells form a chimney and become toxic, depending of course, on where the fire is, etc.

I decided not to follow the firm to the 40th (or so) floor when they moved and tell everyone of my experience as a sort of reality check when working in places such as this.

Of course, no one was fired, either (smiles).

Take care, LaVerne

From: agasaya@webtv.net (Barbara Rubin)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:09:37 -0400 (EDT)
To: immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@egroups.com, Bill@BillMurawski.com
Subject: [IMMUNE] SUCCESS!!

To the Lists:

Bill Murawski printed out portions of the immune website devoted to the health impacts of the WTC disaster (Bless you Cyndi!). He also printed the NYCOSH information posted by Maggie M. on both lists. A woman by the name of Donna Reilly who was poisoned by malathion in the 1999 aerial spraying for WNV has been very active in providing relevant information as well. Bill had tried to talk to local firefighters earlier in the week but they are too numb with grief to handle such issues, particularly anything that contradicts what the mayor is telling them. After careful deliberation we decided the only voices with greater impact would be the union reps and Bill sought them out today.

It so happens, one of the union officers had written a memo of concern today but lacked good back-up documentation to counter EPA findings (Ms. Whitman says she is "not concerned" although they have been talking about respirator masks which are good for asbestos particle protection - only a portion of the problem). When they saw Bill's documents, they PAGED an officer who was at a funeral. There were ten funerals today and these poor people are beside themselves. The officer, involved with health issues, was very grateful and excited about this type of support and Bill told me to expect personal contact from the department for more information and elaboration. The employee with whom Bill spoke had even heard of MCS and understood our orientation.

With the ear of the Firefighter's union in New York, you can be assured this information will eventually spread throughout the country and impact positively upon many lives. In addition, if the firefighters insist upon precautions against certain pollutants in excess of federal guidelines, this may help to alter those guidelines.

We are just getting started. I will send you all an email later today requesting research assistance with particular topics of immediate relevance. I will also collect names and email addresses of all those willing to give them out and make sure the firefighters know who is working for them behind the scenes. My knowledge is just the tip of the iceberg and you collectively possess information that will eventually succeed in making "grass roots" changes that many scientists have been urging for years

Pat yourselves on the back everyone!

Enthusiastically, Barbara

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:27:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism

Someone sent me private email asking what kind of mask would protect against a biological agent or chemical attack. I had to say that I hadn't a clue. I'd like to think this would never happen but I do take the question seriously. As do many others. There is a discussion about it on Medscape, mostly between doctors.

http://forums.medscape.com/forums?128@199.4EcbaRaKbdi^5@.ee7b5fa

You need to sign up for a free account to read Medscape articles and forums.

There are several discussions on bioterrorism, including the one cited above. They are here: http://forums.medscape.com/forums?14@199.4EcbaRaKbdi^0@.ee7e0d1

Within this forum is a thread called: Improper MASK/Goggle use is dangerous http://forums.medscape.com/forums?11@199.4EcbaRaKbdi^14@.ee7c793/3

A non-med professional began the thread and echoes the warnings we make here. I have contributed to that thread with my website address. The thread is about the toxins at the WTC site and not about bioterrorism.

Cyndi

From: MMacraven@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:15 EDT
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism
To: immune@immuneweb.org

Cyndi and all, I spent yesterday researching appropriate NCB (nukechembio) masks and protective warfare gear. There is an Israel mask that seems most popular and it is only good for 20 minutes of engagement, so not sure what one does after the 20 minutes are up.

I hear the masks are going for high buck on Ebay right now--gouging prices, but that is "typical" behaviour.

So then I asked the Gulf War list and the from their knowledge, they contend that you don't have time to put one on unless there is a sophisticated warning system, and that rather than just having a mask one would need the full MOPP suit because of skin absorption--and also the "cocktail" types of chem agents. The pricing would be prohibitive---but those with the funds should surely get one of those. So a HazMat suit would be the ticket---the kind used in bio/chem emergencies--don't you wish we could construct and sell those and donate the proceeds to the cause of MCS/CI etc.?

Anyway, the crop dusters are back up in the air---they are the "clear and present" danger we have dealt with for a very long time and evidently those in power don't see the connection between killing people with organochlorines and organophosphates used in pesticides and those OPs in Sarin gas. I heard yesterday that it was "essential" to the farming business to get them up as quickly as possible ;-(( The terrorists are only a portion of what we have and should fear.

The network news also tried to appease us by saying that it would be too hard to obtain these bio/chem agents. But then they say that a number of alleged terrorists have gotten licenses to transport hazardous materials and that a couple of the guys wanted to learn all about crop dusters. I don't think they would waste the time doing that, unless they had the "goods" in hand, which I am sure they do. They can buy them right here in the US and Russia has major stores of them also. A little 2+2 critical thinking is always in order.

I have sites that sell the equipment, if anyone wants them.

Maggie MacRaven

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:15:33 -0700
To: immune@immuneweb.org
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism

Hi Cyndi, Maybe you should not post this. Or even read it. I'll be willing to email it directly to those who email me they want to know the worse case scenario. So maybe just post this paragraph.

At 12:27 AM 9/26/2001 , Cyndi Norman wrote:

Someone sent me private email asking what kind of mask would protect against a biological agent or chemical attack. I had to say that I hadn't a clue. I'd like to think this would never happen but I do take the question seriously. As do many others.

Here is the worse case scenario(s). Do not read further if you are delicate.

Best is full suit and tanked air for protection against all forms except those that attack the suit and rubber seals, which would be a combination of chemical and bio attack. A tank of air at sea level lasts 30 to 50 minutes. One might carry a spare tank while exiting the building and driving away from the attack site to clean air. Be wary of individuals trying to get your protection off of you. Have a gun. Sad. Or have 10-50 air tanks to last til the decomtamination teams arrive to get you. Some attacks settle as dust and are effective for weeks.

Likely you will be a goner even with this protection. Read on for why.

When driving out expect to reach the government security border and have to get out and wait to be decomtaminated on the outside of your suit. Likely they will not be so equiped and have shoot on sight orders for anyone approaching too close in order to protect themselves from the dust and chemicals on your suit. Be sure to have a bull horn and stop a decent distance. Bull horns need an internal microphone inside your face mask for best results.

Expect to die from suffocation as you are made to wait for the decomtamination equipment to arrive, or risk taking off your face mask when your air runs out and inhalation the bio/chem attack left on your suit. Do stop at a scuba store and load all the full tanks up. Be aware that special hose connections are needed and extra filtering as changing out the tank will have the new tank hose connection comtaminated and you do not want to breath that.

Best is a full ham radio rig and get them on the air soonest and find out where to drive to get decomtaminated. That is the only way to survive is to go meet them where they are ready, with extra air tanks for you while you wait in line. To be prepared costs about $5,000.00 and to be fully prepared one needs an early warning system that detects 2 to 3 dozen bio/chem weapons, as getting into the full suit takes about 5 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes if you practice daily. You need a second suit, as all that practice will eventually rip the first one. The warning system will run about $250,000.00 now a days, and is useless if you out of the area, so you need the warning system connected to your ham radio transmitter whose receiver you keep on you at all times, with interface to cell phone and email and web page status as back up methods. Add another $20K for all that.

Suit replacement should be every two years. Test kits for the warning system and test every 4 to 6 months all systems including the back up system. Add another 50K a year.

Hey, if you do this, then please write it all up so someone like me can duplicate it. ;-(

Now, just how much money should your government spend on preventing a single bio/chem attack? Several million? Remember they have many cities to protect. So several billion?

I place my life higher than that, so I would ok a trillion or even 10 to 100 trillion dollars A YEAR to stop bio/chem attacks before they happen. This includes invading other countries known or suspected and refusing inspection of labs and areas that _might_ be making bio/chem weapons.

The ounce of prevention...

Details:

Early Warning System: spectrum analysis for absorption and emmission wavelengths of known bio/chem weapons. Must have external air draw from upwind direction at least half a mile away, so some 30 to 80 test sites. Need backup units for second wave attack with different bio/chem weapon. The first wave attack likely will cause malfunctions in the first equipment, or loss of electrical power due to accident in the building or near by (car driven by dead person runs into power pole), and battery back up for all locations.

Incubation Periods:

Anthrax is 1 to 6 days. So you are walking dead already unless you are the 1 in 5 who the massive hourly antibotics work for, and the supply of antibotics does not run out.

Of just get the vaccine in use the last 20 years. It can give symptoms just like MCS and other ailments but Western Medicine states there are no long term problems but read the fine print that states in 1 out of 200,000 will die from the vaccine, and other long term ailments will persist for a higher ratio. BTW, the same is true for all vaccines, both the death rate and long term ailments.

Now, that I have talked around the worse case scenario I can really go into worse than worse case scenarios and really scare you more. :-(

BEST BETS

Drive quickly but safely upwind to the nearest hospital or further hospital and report you are suffering from exposure to bio/chem attack. Of course, since you walked into the hospital emergency area, the whole area is now closed to all personal, and those that were in the area are contaminated and spreading the ailment to other hospital areas, and maybe to the rest of the town. So your quick thinking just killed several hundred or thousands more. To prevent this have a second outer suit that fits over the first one to keep most of the chemicals in. Prepare yourself information wise and know what hospitals have external decontamination stations and familiarize yourself with its operation. While driving there, keep the windows up and the vent off to keep the bio/chem attack in your vehicle as much as possible. Call them up ahead of time as you driving and arrange for them to evacuate the area and tent over it including an area to park your car. Remember to shut your car door upon exiting. Your car will be destoryed afterwards.

Ok, you are still reading? It gets worse but I'm out of time to write this down.

TRULY BEST BET: Move to the mountains to a small town unlikely to be attacked. Be prepared to repel invaders from the attacked cities as your food supply is limited to the next 5-10 days, and if all those city folk are

allowed in your food will last that day only. And 1 out of 10 of the city folk is walking dead and will infect you. Shoot them at a distance and then suit and pour gasoline on the body and burn the bio/chem attack away, you hope. You best identify the attack method first and use the appropriate counter measures. Cost: $250,000.00 plus yearly cost to replace counter measures that age with time.

Ok, so it is not likely that the whole city will be attacked in mass, but just a subway or building or two as the area is enclosed and disipation of the bio/chem is slower there. I was talking worse case afterall. Now you know. Happy nightmares. Sad.

From: Javilk (javilk@best.com)
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism
To: cnorman@best.com
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: immune@immuneweb.org

Full face HEPA and a full suit for more concentrated environments. Basically though, if you have plenty of anti-oxidants like vitamin C in your system, you will either make it, or not. Biological agents are more of a concentration issue unless it is something really bad, in which case the first victims are likely going to be the terrorists in the lab, and kind of mind needed for the experimentation tends not to be able to handle the concept of mass murder very well. And if it is really bad, like the hemoragic fevers Marburg of Ebola, then vitamin C will help quite a bit. (It is my understanding that the first survivor of a recent plague of Ebola was taking C supplements when she caught it. They then used her blood to make the shots.)

-J- (John, Javilk@best.com)
CAUTION: I'm no doctor, I only tell computers what to do.
Nothing in this document should be construed as medical advice. My opinions are subject to the availability of information. I learn new things each day, and so may change my opinions.

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:42:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: MMacraven@aol.com CC: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism

From: MMacraven@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:15 EDT

So then I asked the Gulf War list and the from their knowledge, they contend that you don't have time to put one on unless there is a sophisticated warning system, and that rather than just having a mask one would need the full MOPP suit because of skin absorption--and also the "cocktail" types of chem agents.

This is basically what the Medscape folks are saying too. There is protection that is reasonable for "first line" people and medical personelle, but there really is no way to protect the general population. You can't go around in a full suit and respirator all the time.

The irony of this has been on my mind too.

There are so many. And heck quite a few of the things that will kill us are legal and easily available. Sigh...

Cyndi

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com)
To: pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com CC: immune@immuneweb.org
Subject: Re: [IMMUNE] Bioterrorism

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:15:33 -0700
From: Peter Benjamin (pete-imm@peterbenjamin.com)

Hi Cyndi, Maybe you should not post this. Or even read it. I'll be willing to email it directly to those who email me they want to know the worse case scenario. So maybe just post this paragraph.

I posted it anyway. Why not? A massive national attack would be as bad as you described, most likely. But my opinion is either nothing will happen, we'll get small "managable" attacks, or we'll have a nightmare so massive it will spread through-out the earth and wipe out most of humanity. I'm not sure I want to be one of the survivors in that last case.

To my mind, preparing for something like this is like preparing for nuclear war. Fairly useless unless you're a multi-millionare, and probably even then. So, frankly, I'm not going to worry too much about it. Sure I could get all worked up with terror, but isn't that what the point of terrorism is? It's not just about the actual deaths, injuries, and damage. It's about scaring the population so bad they bend to your will.

I plan to take reasonable precautions to protect myself in case of disaster. I plan to work towards peace & justice and encouraging our government to obey international law (and human decency) instead of finding excuses to violate it (or covering it up, as per normal proceedure). And I plan to live my life.

Probably the way to stay safest is what you mentioned, moving to an isolated area. Most of us already are away from cities because of MCS issues. I assume your worst-case senario isn't heavy on your mind or you'd be long out of LA (an obvious target given its population, military bases nearby, and access to the coast).

Anyway, there's only so far we can change our lives to protect against the unthinkable. I'd rather spend my time on helping people in the here and now and creating a rich life for myself and those I love. Much better than being holed up in fear and lashing out at any potential danger.

Cyndi

From: MMacraven@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:11:18 EDT
Subject: [IMMUNE] Chemical assault
To: wsmcsn@egroups.com, MCS-CI-exile@yahoogroups.com, immune@immuneweb.org, informedchoices@yahoogroups.com

I just heard on CNN what we need to look for in case of chemical attack ;-O Please read with tongue in cheek--this is not a news flash for us--just interesting to see it on TV and the spin they use. Maybe we should start keeping track of what they are saying now about chemicals, and use it when we need it. I have yet to hear that sarin and pesticides are both organophosphates.

From CNN:

Chemicals can affect nerves, lungs, blood, muscles---HHHMMM--who wudda thought---all along we have been told it was all in our heads :-/

Symptoms might be:

runny, burning eyes, burning in chest, burning skin, pulmonary edema (fluid in lungs) hypoxia (low blood oxygen) difficulty breathing weak muscles (we were told it was just laziness) rigid muscles

They said go to the hospital to get tested---what a novel idea--and then they can say it is all in your head????? and refer you to a psychologist???? As I recall when those of us showed up at the docs offices with these complaints we were verbally abused by the medical "professionals" because our symptoms were all over the place, so it must be somatization disorder and psyche drugs were prescribed, often harming those who took them dutifully.

They recommend atropine for chemical exposure (too bad we didn't get atropine after pesticide poisoning---wait, I remember, they told us pesticides are safe!) Ciproflaxine for biological exposure such as antrax (cipro has been selling out at pharmacies today already---don't you wonder who the DOCS are that are prescribing this anti-biotic BEFORE a problem exists, interesting, isn't it? and will it only go to their "special" patients?) Cipro is made by the same folks who bring us major pesticides also---Bayer.

In answer to a question about long-term damage from chemical exposure, the person on CNN said NO, not to worry. Maybe they should have interviewed some Agent Orange, Gulf War Vets, or some of the folks on our many lists.

Excuse my sarcasm. Just wondering if the "conventional wisdom" is that chemical exposures can be dangerous and require treatment, after all.............

Maggie MacRaven

From: MMacraven@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:39:16 EDT
Subject: [IMMUNE] WNV pesticide spraying / terrorism
To: wsmcsn@egroups.com, informedchoices@yahoogroups.com, immune@immuneweb.org, MCS-CI-exile@yahoogroups.com, CHECNET-FORUM@checnet.org

Forwarded with permission

Dear Friends,

Yesterday, the State of Maryland decided to hold off any pesticide spraying for now for West Nile Virus, as well as for nuisance control, out of concern for possible terrorist interception of spray trucks (either before trucks are used for pesrticide applications or during use ). But they do plan to resume spraying eventually.

Debbie Roy and Carol Beauregard have urged me raise this concern to the national level and to ask you to call the White House at 202 456 1111 and tell them about this terrorist risk, in hopes that a moritorium on pesticide spraying will be extended nationwide because of concerns about terrorism. Here is a letter which gives you information about this issue. Please contact Veronika if you require more information.

----- Original Message -----
From: Veronika B Carella
Subject: Questions regarding Security Procedures for MDA Pesticide Spraying

One of our PTA committee members raised some concerns regarding the planned spraying of pesticides by the MDA scheduled for this evening in Baltimore. With the heighten security and the concern over biological and/or chemical attack...
1) What safety precautions do you have in place to ensure that no sabotaging of the MDA or contracted trucks can occur?
2) Also, how will residents know that this is legitimate MDA pest control vs a terrorist threat? Also, there have been a number of newsreports stating concern over crop-dusters...
3) Do those same concerns extend to farmers/contractors/landscapers with similar equipment used to spread chemicals over large areas (i.e. via )tractors, pickups, highway herbicide contractors, etc.?
Please let me know how to respond to my PTA committee.
Thank you.
Veronika Carella
PTACHC Health & Environmental Issues Committee
IPM Workgroup Leader
phone: 410-489-5495
fax: 410-442-0270
email: jlcarella@msn.com

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